| Author | Topic: Lets talk 2.0 (Read 2,533 times) |
Anthony Nordquist Administrator
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|  | Lets talk 2.0 « Thread Started on Jan 13, 2012, 9:25am » | |
There is roughly 5.5 to 6 months before the expected freeze of Debian Wheezy, which will signify the coming of early development builds of SalineOS 2.0. I would like to invite everyone to make suggestions and join the discussion on what will be coming in 2.0. This post will also serve as my own personal to do list and will be updated periodically.
These items will be done for 1.6: I will be adding the custom actions I posted earlier here: http://salinelinux.proboards.com/index.c....ad=98&post=5189 I will be killing the P.S.E as I feel that I went about it the wrong way, I will be cutting up the scripts and doing something for 2.0 (See below). Will be applying a fix to the X server wanting to blank the screen after 10 minutes.
To do and other info for 2.0: The desktop background will be changed to another piece of photography, though I have one in mind if you know of some copyleft photography that is really good, feel free to make suggestions.
Determine the best theme to use.
The Icon theme is up in the air, if you have suggestions, please post under this thread. If anyone wants to fix up some of the icons that were included in SalineOS 1.x, they are public domain works (Except the terminal and desktop icons which I will be making from the desktop background), and can be changed freely. If you change any of them and post them here I will consider adding them for 2.0.
I will be moving to sudo for administrative tasks. Don't worry though, you can always open a root terminal through a Thunar custom action, as I will be updating it to work properly. I "may" add a launcher to the bottom panel as well.
I will be including Pulse Audio by default, the rational behind this is simple, every sound related issue posted on the forums for 1.x was fixed by installing Pulse Audio.
I am very likely going to replace Chromium with Midori. This decision has nothing to do with conserving system resources, I just feel Midori is the best available browser right now. Great strides have been made since version 2.4 that is available from the Squeeze repositories. As an added bonus, Midori uses less system resources
If feasible I will be including the Google Chrome repository and the Iceweasel backports repository.
Setup my own repository, this is likely to include packages for the user manual, salineos_utils, game packages built from upstream's pre-compiled binaries and packages pulled from Debian backports (When they start for Wheezy).
I will be moving to packagekit utilities for handling software updates and installation of packages. This means the removal of Synaptic.
Deluge will be replacing Transmission.
Xchat and baobab won't be included by default.
Firestarter firewall will be included.
Change desktop Icon size.
Change side pane icons in Thunar to "small".
Create Thunar launcher next to the Applications Menu.
I will be writing SalineOS System Utilities, a program using YAD with options to do various things such as, install proprietary drivers using magix-driver-installer, install-restricted-multimedia, change the system language and keyboard layout with localizesys, setup a lamp server, re-size the default SalineOS swap file, ease the installation and configuration of WINE, install XBMC and its extras, and whatever else I can come up with or good ideas that are suggested in this thread.
I am likely to replace Rhythmbox as the default music player, I am looking for input your favorite music players and why. I won't be using one that requires QT or Mono libraries so please only GTK based suggestions. -Exaile is currently the likely candidate.
Package Kit URL will be included, this script was developed and will continue to be developed in house. Put simply this is an apturl implementation built on the package kit command line utility pkcon. I have actually developed two implementations of this script, one that uses Zenity for a GUI which is only likely to work on Debian based systems and one that runs inside an xterm window. Packagekit URL is backwards compatible with Ubuntu's apturl implementation, for those keeping track yes this means that any distribution that has pkcon can use apturl links through packagekit url. My hope is that other distributions will take up using my convention of pkgkit://package-name/operation and these links will be supported by several distributions in the future (But, I will not be holding my breath). I do not and will never be supporting adding repositories as apturl does, packagekit URL simply strips this extra input out and installs the package using what is available from the repositories already enabled on the system. -Edit, This will be re-written in YAD.
The source for Package Kit URL is available here: Zenity version: http://www.salineos.com/Scripts/packagekit-url Xterm Version: http://www.salineos.com/Scripts/xterm/packagekit-url
To setup either version is fairly simple:
Put whatever version you intend to use in /usr/bin and mark it executable. Ensure you have pkcon installed, this is supplied by the package packagekit in Debian. For the Zenity version you obviously need Zenity installed.
Create a .desktop file in /usr/share/applications called packagekit-url.desktop and add this:
[Desktop Entry] Version=1.0 Type=Application Exec=gksudo "xterm -e /usr/bin/packagekit-url %u" StartupNotify=false Terminal=false
If using the zenity version change the Exec line to gksudo /usr/bin/packagekit-url %u
Now you need to add support to the various browsers: For Midori you need to edit the $HOME/.local/share/applications/mimeapps.list (Possibly default.list in some distros?, I know this was the case for Debian Squeeze) of each user on the system and add these lines: x-scheme-handler/pkgkit=packagekit-url.desktop x-scheme-handler/apt=packagekit-url.desktop
Chrome/Chromium Patch xdg-open (Located in /usr/bin on Debian) to include this: For Xterm:
Code:if [ "$(echo "$@" | grep "pkgkit://")" != "" ]; then gksudo "xterm -e /usr/bin/packagekit-url $@" elif [ "$(echo "$@" | grep "apt:")" != "" ]; then gksudo "xterm -e /usr/bin/packagekit-url $@" fi |
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For Zenity
Code:if [ "$(echo "$@" | grep "pkgkit://")" != "" ]; then gksudo /usr/bin/packagekit-url "$@" elif [ "$(echo "$@" | grep "apt:")" != "" ]; then gksudo /usr/bin/packagekit-url "$@" fi |
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Firefox/Iceweasel: Ran out of time, will add this later. Cheers.
Bugs that are affecting packagekit-url development at this time: pkcon lacks a simulate option like apt has. Showing all the dependencies that will be pulled in with the package on the confirmation dialog would be nice, but without this switch it cannot be done cleanly. This bug was reported to packagekit upstream. https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42602
Weird behavior from Midori when being redirected to an apturl, also reported to the upstream devs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/midori/+bug/916502
Migrate all the SalineOS utilities to YAD, this includes the installer, magix, localizesys and grub-doctor.
Re-write the installer mostly from scratch, using reusable functions. The installer will be setting all the options and showing a list of everything it will be doing and allowing you to go back and change any option individually.
Cleanup the menu by moving .desktop files to $HOME/.local/share/applications and modifying them with the line NoDisplay=true
Create $HOME/.config/menus/xfce-applications.menu and tweak it as needed.
Configure all hibernate options to divert to suspend (All of them I can).
Write a custom logout dialog without an option to hibernate, include a What's This button to explain Xfce4-Session. This what's this button should be able to remove itself from the dialog after being read.
Investigate reverting to the open source drivers for ATI and NVIDIA.
Ship all available printer drivers on the ISO images.
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beardedragon Global Moderator
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|  | Re: Lets talk 2.0 « Reply #1 on Jan 13, 2012, 3:07pm » | |
Banshee uses GTK2 and is always a favorite. Sorry to hear about PSE, We can still use XBMC on SalineOS, though.
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Robert Collard, Madison, WI HP s5710f, 2x AMD Athlon II 260@3.2Ghz 3GB RAM, 640GB HD SalineOS 2.0 XFCE-4.8 3.2.0-4-amd64 Debian 7.0 XFCE-4.8 3.2.0-4-amd64
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Richard Elder Member
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|  | Re: Lets talk 2.0 « Reply #2 on Jan 13, 2012, 4:45pm » | |
Looking forward to the new release, 1.6 then 2.0. Probably just like to see something different from time to time. 
The latest Midori promises to be much improved over the current one in the repo. That one, v2.4, couldn't import Chrome bookmarks, nor html. I read that the new one can. A lot of changes were offered if I were to install the version from their site today.
I feel that scripting a server install or some such to carve out a server will save time and effort. Less maintenance.
Packagekit looks like it is finally arriving. It should help to unify the myriad linuxes with a common interface for software installation and updating. Looking forward to it.
regards, Richard.
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SalineOS-2.0dev2..Xfce4.8 SolydX.................Xfce4.10 Crunchbang-11.....Xfce4.8 |
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dyfi New Member
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|  | Re: Lets talk 2.0 « Reply #3 on Jan 14, 2012, 2:16am » | |
I am a fan of Rhythmbox - always seems to work for me.
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petrek Senior Member
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|  | Re: Lets talk 2.0 « Reply #4 on Jan 14, 2012, 7:24am » | |
Is this removal of Synaptic necessary? Or is it just conservating of space?
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Anthony Nordquist Administrator
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|  | Re: Lets talk 2.0 « Reply #5 on Jan 14, 2012, 9:00am » | |
Removing Synaptic is a choice. In short, the packagekit utilities do everything Synaptic does and does them in a better way. Shipping them and Synaptic would lead to wasted disk space and needless clutter for a majority of users. That being said, you should have no issue installing and using Synaptic. Ideally people won't need to do much in the way of installing and removing software in the first place, and I will be doing everything I can to get as close to this as humanly possible.
As for the music player, I may stay with Rhythmbox but am actively trying out all the music players I can find to see if there is possibly a better fit. Banshee requires mono libraries, so from an efficiency standpoint it is actually a step in the wrong direction. To be frank I didn't put much thought into the inclusion of Rhythmbox, it was a very safe choice to make at the time. Early development builds of 1.0 were used by me and lkj only I think and I personally don't care about music players .. I use Parole to play my music files. The real question here is if Rhythmbox is the right choice to be shipping by default, I have time to look into it now and I also have people paying attention to get input from. Interestingly Parole, Exaile and Rhythmbox all use the same amount of non-cache memory to play a single audio file, so I just shipped Rhythmbox. I also considered Jamendo plugin pretty important at the time since Jamendo is just a cool site, this really wasn't that important in hindsight, since actually using the plugin will shoot your RAM and CPU usage through the roof. If I stick with Rhythmbox I will be disabling it by default; I am likely to include a web app through Webkit for Jamendo in the applications menu in its place.
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petrek Senior Member
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|  | Re: Lets talk 2.0 « Reply #6 on Jan 14, 2012, 10:15am » | |
Thanks, if it's better then I must try this Packagekit someday Rythmbox is quite good choice, but I must try the latest Exaile, maybe something changed for the better. With Parole I have some issues, it crashes at random times when playing flash videos. But it may be caused by ATI proprietary fglrx driver, I have some other issues with it, that doesn't exist with opensource driver from backported 2.6.38 kernel.
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loubapache Junior Member
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|  | Re: Lets talk 2.0 « Reply #7 on Jan 14, 2012, 11:10am » | |
I am using Exaile now and I like it very much. It also has the file/folder based feature. This is good for people with huge music libraries. I have run into some issues with crashing and playlists (disappearing, etc) but I will stay with it, hoping the next versions will be more stable.
My issue with Rythmbox is the poor tagging support.
Well, among all the players I have used in various OS, foobar2000 is the best but it is only for Windows. I do all my ripping, tagging, organizing in foobar with FALC/ALAC support and then use the files in other OS. '
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ukbrian Senior Member
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|  | Re: Lets talk 2.0 « Reply #8 on Jan 15, 2012, 1:08am » | |
+1
Quote:| I will be including Pulse Audio by default |
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+1 Midori I find Midori an interesting project which mozilla class as experimental maybe it's mozilla's future browser using Webkit instead of gecko, who knows. There's a few firefox addons that need redoing for webkit before i move but it's simple enough to stick firefox on.
I'm a fan of foobar, I install wine just for foobar. The linux music player I use if forced to is DeaDBeeF http://deadbeef.sourceforge.net/download.html Good small footprint, I can live with it, not keen on any of the large footprint apps.
Quote:| foobar2000 is the best but it is only for Windows |
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I liked exaile till it got huge.
Would there be any sense in having a very basic install on the cd but then a script to select/install additional apps into the live session that then get installed when you click the install button?
Folk with slow downloads could customize their desktops while the apps are downloading, or am I being silly? I've got good hardware for recording video but maybe someone else would care to edit in a more professional way rather than my homespun way.
I don't get on with manuals but would there be any sense in using a html page(s) so your always reading the latest up to date version.
I'd like to make a video of installing SalineOS that you think is so good it gets a link on the installer desktop along side the text manual so children can see how to install SalineOS even if they can't read the words. Kids go onto youtube to learn how to do things now days, maybe SAlineOS needs a youtube channel.
Maybe a contest for the next customized install desktop which I think is very neglected by most distros, just increasing the icon size makes a huge difference, the labels get completely displayed, you can read them instead of just the first word, not very good when the install icons label just says "SalineOS I..." on 36 pixels "SalineOS Installer" and all the other labels display correctly on 52 pixles
Do you really want Home, Filesystem and Removable Devices on the desktop? so much clutter I think.
Newcomers especially prefer to be able to see the top panel, I think it wise not to have a dark difficult to distinguish panel, those that like dark panels know how to achieve it in seconds, newcomers have to learn how. I've taken to using Crux and I've put it on 3 new users machines with no complaints, I just tell them I put my favourite windows os on.
I do think the installer desktop is very important, that's the users first impression, the shop window.
I took some snapshots of every window that came up during the install and I couldn't believe how many there where, I think 36 different screen forms appeared, not all requiring input from the user but still a large amount.
I'm not criticising Anthoney, his scripting, everything is top grade hence you have such a reliable sturdy tool in SalineOS, she don't brake! I just in my strange way wish to try to help SalineOS get even easier for first time users but it's the skipper who makes the decisions.
Thinking about browsers, i will stick with firefox simply because of speed dial, all my novices very quickly get used to it and start creating their own new dials quite quickly. so i'm going to vote for firefox or iceweasel until speed dial is rewritten for midori.
2, 2 and a half years ago he looked at rewriting it for chrome but found he'd have to rewrite a lot for it to work with Webkit but android is such a big hit in the mobile world and that's a big market for a good app, they pay for the apps to on mobiles which is good for a developer.
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peace and contentment to all, may the genuine thrive
Edit I also prefer geany as a text editor.
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Anthony Nordquist Administrator
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|  | Re: Lets talk 2.0 « Reply #9 on Jan 15, 2012, 7:56am » | |
Midori has speed dial support in Debian Wheezy, and it works fairly well sans a couple bugs that I expect to be fixed by release time. At least one I looked at has a fix committed already. I have not decided whether to use the Iceweasel backports repository, or to host my own Firefox packages in my own repository. Firefox is actually a fairly complex beast when you start looking under the hood, I have some studying to do. I was less than impressed with Midori 2.4 that is available in Debian Squeeze and by extension SalineOS 1.x, but Wheezy is currently on version 4.3 which is showing itself to be quite the masterpiece. The only reason I will consider switching the default browser at this point is show stopping buggy behavior.
I have considered writing/forking off one of the installers that use Webkit for a GUI and using that for 2.0. I think this is the wrong route to go though, sure there will be less screens, but each one will have more information. I like having the installer ask exactly one thing at a time, I think it helps lessen confusion.
As far as the dark theme, the reasoning behind using it is the contrast it creates. The most important part about a UI is usability, and people with bad vision have a hard time with lower contrast themes. I am one of these people personally. This is also why SalineOS ships with the use of bold fonts by default. Increasing the base icon size is a good idea, and so is removing the File System icon from the desktop. I intend to put a Thunar icon up by the Applications menu on the top panel as well. Ideally the desktop is something you see when you boot the machine, and never have to look for any reason while the machine is running. I would like to remove the removable device icons from the desktop and do so on my own machine, but I think they should be there since they are on most other Linux Distros. It is just expected behavior and going against that without really good reason is usually bad, and I just don't think there is a good enough reason to.
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loubapache Junior Member
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|  | Re: Lets talk 2.0 « Reply #10 on Jan 15, 2012, 8:49am » | |
About theme.
I personally like dark theme so the Albatross theme is just about perfect for me.
However, I think the contrast can be further improved because the "white" is not "white" enough. Wish it were "FFFFFF".
There could be simple way to change it but I have not tried or found a way.
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petrek Senior Member
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|  | Re: Lets talk 2.0 « Reply #11 on Jan 15, 2012, 12:18pm » | |
I think there could be Albatross Light and Albatross Dark, light letters on dark background are not good for everyone eyes.
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Anthony Nordquist Administrator
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|  | Re: Lets talk 2.0 « Reply #12 on Jan 15, 2012, 12:34pm » | |
I have modified my starting post, and will be looking into using a different theme for 2.0. After spending some time looking at the themes I am probably going to customize a theme that uses the Xfce rendering engine. Albatross uses the Murrine engine, which is slightly less efficient than the Xfce rendering engine. Themes made for the Xfce engine are also far easier to customize, so I can tweak things as needed.
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Anthony Nordquist Administrator
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|  | Re: Lets talk 2.0 « Reply #13 on Jan 15, 2012, 10:47pm » | |
I have done a little hacking on the default Xfce 4.6 theme and took a screenshot of my virtual machine. The top panel is transparent, and the bottom panel is solid color black. This works out quite well, since the lighter color is better for reading text, whereas the black makes the icons stick out far better. The XFWM theme (Window boarders) as you can see always have a black window border, the buttons and titles fade out when the window isn't selected. I also changed the default text on the window title to 12 bold, so the change is more noticeable. Thoughts or suggestions?
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petrek Senior Member
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|  | Re: Lets talk 2.0 « Reply #14 on Jan 16, 2012, 12:01am » | |
Looks better than before. But panels on top and bottom are not good for small 16:9 screens, it would be good to have some other theme with panel(s) on side. Also some default colours in 1.5 terminal are not readable (yellow and blue), but it depends also on background, is this a new background? What tool are you using for changes in this theme? And it would be good to have an option in the installer to go back to previous screen I think.
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