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coqui
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(solved) Rolling release?
« Thread Started on Apr 16, 2012, 4:06pm »

As ubuntu is going gaudy and semi-commercial, I've been looking for a replacement when 10.04 LTS support dries up. I know I'll have to do a full install of some distribution with all the hassles of finding new packages of software I barely remember having. I now have SalineOS running from a USB drive and it works very well for me (the update program is really great -- tells me what's going on, about how long the downloads will take and is clear when it's finished -- and I find recent versions of all the packages I really need). My question is this:

I was under the impression that installing "real" Debian would mean that I never had to do another full install -- that it was a "rolling" distribution. Reading the forum, I see that while it will be possible to upgrade to SalineOS 2 after Debian 7 comes out, it would be better to do a fresh install. Could someone tell me why?

Thanks

« Last Edit: Apr 17, 2012, 5:00pm by coqui »

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beardedragon
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Re: Rolling release?
« Reply #1 on Apr 16, 2012, 6:32pm »

Saline OS is based on the Stable version of Debian, currently Squeeze and later it will be Wheezy as it gets out of testing. A true rolling release would require updates without changing versions, so if you want something like that get into Debian Testing. Just understand that the updates are sometimes fast and furious while other times an application may be removed because all of the packages are not available. Stable and not worrying about updates or leading edge which may crash, your choice. The reason a complete fresh install is recommended is there are far too many changes to keep up between Squeeze and Wheezy.

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Robert Collard, Madison, WI
HP s5710f, 2x AMD Athlon II 260@3.2Ghz 3GB RAM, 640GB HD
Debian 7.0 XFCE-4.10 3.2.0-4-amd64

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Anthony Nordquist
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Re: Rolling release?
« Reply #2 on Apr 17, 2012, 1:15am »

In Debian, new versions of software are first chucked into sid (unstable). If nobody intervenes within 10 days, that package will automatically be added to Debian testing. This process continues until it is about time to release a new stable release, during this time testing is "frozen" with only bug fixes allowed to be added to it (There are freeze exceptions, but those aren't too important right now). Once each and every "release critical" bug is fixed, or a release exception is given for the bug, then Debian makes the stable release. A Debian testing system is both predictable and un-predictable at the same time. Testing will spend roughly 14-15 months with new packages rolling in from sid, all of which could potentially break your system (Or fix the last thing that broke). Then the freeze will begin, this process usually lasts roughly 6 months, in this time Testing is fairly tame and generally stable enough for everyday use, bugs that have persisted sometimes for months are squashed in this time period (Happy times). The frozen testing system gets released as new stable, at this point it is a VERY good idea to stop using Debian testing, because all hell breaks loose here. While testing is frozen and no packages are being cycled in from unstable, packages are still being added to unstable, creating a huge backlog of packages to merge back to testing. This backlog comes in like tsunami, all at once and crushing systems left and right. If you depend on your system to actually work, this is a very bad time period to be trailing testing, disaster cleanup from this process lasts roughly 3-4 months.

Debian stable does not receive new package versions, only security fixes for it's lifespan. Debian provides a backports service, that compiles packages from Debian testing for use on the stable system. SalineOS will automatically pull in "some" of these backported packages automatically, after I have vetted the packages for potential issues. These packages are only user land applications, the base system is always left alone. SalineOS will never backport important system libraries, kernels, boot scripts or anything else low level. This means that even if a problematic package makes its way to SalineOS, the system will continue to function (Even if a single app fails) SalineOS is only ever officially "frozen" when Debian testing is in freeze and I am preparing for a new stable release.

Upgrades are a very complicated process, you are essentially replacing every single file that makes the system actually function. Regardless of distribution or even operating system, upgrades can and do cause huge problems and/or outright fail. This is currently a fact of life in the software world, as much as people want to cover their ears and sing la la la, it still is. I recommend doing a fresh install, since you can simply download the ISO (Possibly overnight if your connection is slow) and then install the system, and I am much more confident that this process will succeed and give you a clean working system than upgrading will. It is also both faster and a more pleasant experience than going through the upgrade process. SalineOS will have a self extracting archive that will be downloaded and run with a single line in a terminal for doing the upgrade, this will make the process somewhat less messy. But, it isn't too clean either, since I am going to have to script the removal of packages and changing of lots of configuration files into it. Right now if you take a stable SalineOS 1.x system and change "squeeze" to "wheezy" in your sources list and run a dist-upgrade, you are in for lots of "fun". A handful of packages will prompt you for input, that they really don't need to prompt you for, apt will decide it is a good idea to install the entirety of gnome shell (105 packages of it, right down to the panel), because lets face it GNOME shell is just so good, every system that runs the Linux kernel must want the entire thing on their system ::)

Apt will do this since a Pidgin plugin decided it was a good idea to depend on a package that in turn depends on the gnome-shell meta package. The reason for an upgrade archive is to try to account for as many of these little problems as I possibly can to allow the upgrade to go as smooth as possible, but I can never account for every package that every person might have installed on their machine.

If you don't want to do a fresh install, because you don't have anywhere to backup your data, you need to get somewhere to backup your data. If you care about your information you should not trust ANY system written by ANYBODY to upgrade cleanly into a working system. Again this is just a fact of life in the times we find ourselves living in, maybe the future will change this, maybe not, but for now backup your information before doing any major upgrades. *My two cents, exchange rates may vary.

« Last Edit: Apr 17, 2012, 10:40am by Anthony Nordquist »

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coqui
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Re: (solved) Rolling release?
« Reply #3 on Apr 17, 2012, 5:12pm »

Thanks to both of you, beardedragon & Anthony. I understand a lot more and have even more confidence that salineos is the one I need. Making it "mine" on a USB stick has been easy as pie and slick as silk (or positive cliches of your choice). No problems getting my printer to work, finding xfconf-query let me make the fonts look good on the LCD monitor of this Dell 1525, Xfapplet actually works (first Xfce distro I've tried where that's true). Right now my only complaint is that installing minesweeper and sudoku put no entries in the "Games" tree (Frozen Bubble did), but I'm reasonably certain that I can track that down.

Anyway, I'm impressed: this is an excellent linux distro. As soon as I migrate my data from the WinXP and linux partitions now running on this box to the data partition it's supposed to be on, I'll replace ubuntu with salineos for real.

Thanks again

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whitelotus
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Re: (solved) Rolling release?
« Reply #4 on Apr 20, 2012, 3:24am »

@Anthony.

That was really insightful for end user like me. Thanks a ton.

Eventhough I am not active in forums, I am using SalineOS almost daily.

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